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Steven P 1:06 Mon Jan 9
What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Just seen this on another footy website?

So what would have happened if we hadn't entered? Would WWII have happened? Great Depression? It would have kicked off with Germany anyway?

What's your view NS?

neilalex 9:33 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Told you before Pickle it was the Junckers behind it all and half of them were fucking Polaks a couple of generations back.

Yah booing aside it's been pretty interesting. I don't recall anyone saying Germany or anyone else was solely responsible, and although it's wandered around a bit, its been informative.

Hopefully we can all agree that the French were responsible for WW2.

Hammer and Pickle 9:15 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

'pends what you really want to do. Innit.

If you've got a bit of a fish dinner shoulder decoration, you'll want to play the blame-game and no doubt find plenty of points to score on Fritz and the Kaiser.

But if you are interested in getting some kind of authentic picture of what really happened in history, you'll find a whole load of different stuff coming up. This Infidel has very enjoyably presented and it is, in my 'umble, a lot more interesting.

Mr Anon 8:36 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

A more interesting question would have been:

What if SurfaceAgentX2Zero hadn't entered every argument he can find.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 8:09 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Infidel 7:41 Thu Jan 12.

'I have many faults, but reading too few books isn't one of them, and I can tell you that I have not once resorted to Google or Wikipedia on this thread. That's the difference between you and me.'

It's a shame you haven't been able to reference any of those books. Why? Because your arguments come from one historian and one historian only who you have denied getting them from. And I guess you haven't been able to find anything on Google to support you.

Incidentally your contention that Google as well as Wiki is an illegitimate tool is bizarre.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 8:06 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Why don't you Google them, mate, you're the one telling us they wanted to start a European war, it's up to you to provide the evidence.

Infidel 7:41 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Well you've certainly Googled the hell out of one side of the story, I'll give you that.

Why don't you go off and Google the French, British, Austrian and Russian sides? Then you can come back and tell us what you think.

Or would that be too much of a risk that you might discover you are wrong?

As for reading more books on the subject than I have had hot dinners, I have calculated that I have had approximately 18,250 hot evening meals. Give or take. If it takes a week to read a book you would have to be over 350 years old.

I have many faults, but reading too few books isn't one of them, and I can tell you that I have not once resorted to Google or Wikipedia on this thread. That's the difference between you and me.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 7:22 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

So there we have it:

On one side:
von Bulow's Place in the Sun speech
von Muller's minutes of the war cabinet of 1912
the blank cheque
Bethmann Hollweg's September Programme
Prince Lichnowsky's confirmation of German belligerence

On the other we have Infidel's assurance that everyone else was really wicked and the Germans were a bunch of hippies.

Incidentally mate, I've read more books on this than you've had hot dinners, which is why I was able to spot so quickly that you've only read one, and to name it, and to provide a link to a synopsis of it, and to provide links to academic criticisms of it and the ridiculous TV show Ferguson made of it.

As for Wiki, only a dim-wit would have failed to notice that I used Wiki to show people where you got YOUR argument, not to back up my own. As any history professor will tell you, if you ever get to meet one, Wiki has its uses.

Infidel 7:01 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Surface

You really are embarrassing yourself.

You have been sitting at your laptop furiously Googling "German aggression" to see if you can find some nuggets to post on here.

First, it ought to be obvious that if you have to resort to Google and Wikipedia then by definition you haven't got a proper understanding of the subject - the sort of understanding that comes from reading books by different historians.

Second, this sort of selective copy/paste approach demonstrates that you have no idea how professional historians actually go about their business. If a historian were to write a history of the first world war with reference only to the minutes of the German cabinet two years before the war started they would be laughed at.

For balance, you would have to read all the minutes of all the cabinets across Europe, and not just in 1912 but in the whole period before 1914, with special emphasis on July 1914.

There is in fact a historian who has done just that - Christopher Clark. His book "The Sleepwalkers" is the result of a painstaking analysis of cabinet minutes and diplomatic cables from every relevant country in the Summer of 1914. That's what a proper historian does - research the original documents - all of them - and look at the facts without any agenda.

Your problem is that you approach the subject with a preconceived bias that Germany was to blame. You select bits of information that confirm your bias and ignore any that do not.

Anyone who looks for evidence that Kaiser Wilhem II was a bombastic warmonger will surely find it, but that does not mean Germany was responsible for the outbreak of war. In fact Germany's Chancellor tried to contain the war in the Balkans, as is abundantly clear from Clark's analysis of the cabinet meetings in the summer of 1914.

It must have been tough for you when your parents told you Santa Claus wasn't real and I guess this is another of those moments. But history is history, palatable or not.

Far Cough 4:22 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Next week, Temujin didn't really want the biggest Empire the world has ever seen, he was just a bit moody after getting some mouldy noodles in his midday meal

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 3:05 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Here's the minutes of the German War Cabinet in 1912 from the diary of the Naval Chief of Staff, von Muller:

'summoned to the palace to see His Majesty at 11 o’clock along with Tirpitz, Heeringen (Vice Admiral), and General von Moltke. H.M. with a telegraphic report on the political situation sent by the ambassador in London, Prince Lichnowski. As Grey’s spokesman, Haldane informed Lichnowski that if we attack France, England will come to France’s aid, for England cannot tolerate a disturbance in the European balance of power. H.M. welcomed this message as providing the desired clarification for all those who have been lulled into a false sense of security by the recently friendly English press.
H.M. painted the following picture:

Austria must deal firmly with the Slavs living outside its borders (the Serbs) if it does not want to lose control over the Slavs under the Austrian monarchy. If Russia were to support the Serbs, which she is apparently already doing (Sassonow’s remark that Russia will go straight into Galicia if the Austrians march into Serbia), war would be inevitable for us. But there is hope that Bulgaria, Romania, and Albania—and perhaps even Turkey—will take our side. Bulgaria has already offered Turkey an alliance. We really went to great lengths to persuade the Turks. Recently, H.M. also tried to convince the crown prince of Romania, who stopped here on his way to Brussels, to come to an agreement with Bulgaria. If these powers ally themselves with Austria, it will free us up to throw our full weight behind a war against France. According to His Majesty, the fleet will naturally have to prepare for war against England. After Haldane’s statement, the possibility of a war against Russia alone—as discussed by the chief of the Admiralty in his last talk—will not be considered. So, immediate submarine warfare against English troop transports on the Schelde River or near Dunkirk, mine warfare up to the Thames. To Tirpitz: rapid construction of additional submarines, etc. A conference is recommended for all interested naval offices. Gen. v. Moltke: “I consider a war inevitable—the sooner, the better. But we should do a better job of gaining popular support for a war against Russia, in line with the Kaiser’s remarks.” H.M. confirmed this and asked the secretary of state to use the press to work toward this end. T. called attention to the fact that the navy would gladly see a major war delayed by one and a half years. Moltke said that even then the navy would not be ready, and the army’s situation would continue to worsen, since due to our limited financial resources our opponents are able to arm themselves more rapidly.

That was the end of the meeting. There were almost no results.

The chief of the general staff says: the sooner war comes, the better; however, he hasn’t concluded from this that we should give Russia or France, or even both, an ultimatum that would trigger a war for which they would carry the blame.

I wrote to the chancellor in the afternoon about influencing the press.'

Pacifist stuff.

Infidel 2:55 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

"Clearly emphasising German atrocites might be an unreasonable and hypocritical narrative for British historians to peddle, but anyone with half a brain can see through that."

Those with half a brain argued precisely that on this thread.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 2:21 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

As for the punishment of Serbia, you would be wetting your pants if somebody suggested that Mountbatten's murder by the IRA was a justifcation for the carpet bombing of Dublin.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 2:16 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Infidel 1:06 Thu Jan 12

'Germany in fact tried its best to direct Austria in such a way that the punishment of Serbia - which everyone agreed was justified - would be contained locally.'

No - this is factually incorrect. The Kaiser issued them the 'blank cheque'. Why do you persist in ignoring actual evidence?

neilalex 1:30 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Infidel, you described Germany as decent, civilised and so on, the implication surely being that they didn't want war, otherwise why describe them as such in the context of this discussion?

I'm making a very simple point which is that many at the highest levels of German society would have embraced the possibility of war, and would hardly have been reluctant participants. That isn't an unreasonable position hence I fail to see any irony in what I've said about your belief, which as I understand it was that Germany didn't want war in 1914.

It is of course true that historically the British, the French, The Russians and just about any imperial power committed atrocities which far outweighed those perpetrated by the Germans, however I don't see the particular relevance of that when considering Germany's appetite for war in 1914, or its own imperial ambitions. These are separate issues entirely. Clearly emphasising German atrocites might be an unreasonable and hypocritical narrative for British historians to peddle, but anyone with half a brain can see through that.

I don't think you can overly criticise Britain's joining the war. As you yourself said, war, given an unquestioning populace which often couldn't wait to queue to sign up, was often seen as a first resort. It's what people did.

Infidel 1:06 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Neilalex

There's a rich irony in your post. You start by saying I am making he wrong inferences about Surface and then go on to make one yourself.

Nowhere have I said that Germany was a 'peaceable' nation. There were essentially no peaceable nations at that time, just varying degrees of aggressiveness. War was often a first resort rather than a last resort in those days and the value paced on human life very different compared to today.

What I have challenged is the narrative that Germany wanted war in 1914. It didn't. That doesn't mean it was a peaceable nation, nor does it mean that Germany had no territorial ambitions at that time. In fact all the major countries of Europe (and some minor ones) had territorial ambitions.

Germany in fact tried its best to direct Austria in such a way that the punishment of Serbia - which everyone agreed was justified - would be contained locally.

That is not the case for France, which actively sought to inflame tensions and engineer a war in order to regain the territory it had lost in 1871 and 'teach Germany a lesson'. The French establishment saw all the planets aligned and thought they would never get a better chance to drag Russia and Britain in to help them take revenge.

I am also hugely critical of Britain's decision to join the war. The threshold for committing our troops to a major conflict should be set high. There needs to be an imminent threat to the security of our borders or the safety of British citizens. Neither of these applied in 1914. Germany posed no threat whatsoever to Britain.

It is not sufficient to argue that Germany had ambitions in the middle east that threatened our imperial interests. As I have already pointed out, the potential conflicts with Russia and France around the globe were a much greater threat than Germany's puny presence outside Europe.

And finally I have challenged the rank hypocrisy of British commentators singling out Germany for its expansionism and its mistreatment of its imperial subjects. We had a much worse record , and on a vastly bigger scale, than Gemany.

The first world war was a terrible mistake. If Britain had not joined the war it would have been over quickly, and far fewer boys and young men would have died horrible deaths in those trenches, on both sides.Asquith and Grey made a tragic decision which was the decisive factor in denying Germany victory but at a human cost that ought to make any decent human being cry themselves to sleep.

Darby_ 3:41 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

According to Infi, Germany was forced to invade Belgium and annex Luxembourg and parts of Belgium, and Russia was forced to invade Ukraine and annex the Crimea.

neilalex 12:11 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Infidel - that's quite an inference based on the exchange you've had. I don't remotely see how you could come to that conclusion.

Anyway, pissing contests aside, the portrayal of the Germans as civilised and peaceable simply doesn't ring true. I mentioned a while back the Prussian Junker class and their grip on unified Germany's policy. These people were latter day Spartans, they saw war in almost metaphysical terms, as the fulfilment of their destiny. They absolutely wanted war, it was, in their minds, their raison d'etre. The fact that the odd politician, Canute like, might have wanted to stem that tide doesn't mean shit, frankly. These were warlike, belligerent people with a grip on the higher echelons of German military and political society. Throw into that mix an idiot Kaiser.

I don't want to pretend any great depth of knowledge here - I know much more about what actually happened in WW1 as opposed to why it came to be or who was primarily responsible; However it seems to me to be entirely counter intuitive to paint the Germans as unwilling participants, based on what I've read about German society at the time.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 12:10 Thu Jan 12
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Like I said you would, now you're trying to pretend it was a wind up.

Infidel 11:18 Wed Jan 11
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Surface

I infer from your last post that you have been utterly defeated in the argument.

That's what happens when you wade in on here based on a quick read of Wikipedia.

You get found out.

SurfaceAgentX2Zero 6:55 Wed Jan 11
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

I suspect Infidel started off in earnest having read Ferguson's book and swallowed it whole (or, since he denies reading it, saw the TV programme of the book reviewed here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/tv-and-radio-reviews/10668072/The-Pity-of-War-BBC-Two-review.html).

Now he seems to be making progressively sillier 'points' doubtless so he can ultimately claim to have been on a wind up.

Either that or he is an idiot.

mashed in maryland 6:48 Wed Jan 11
Re: What if Britain hadn't entered WWI?

Those DOUBLE FRIED CHIPS really helped Belgium shine in 1914 eh?

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